Speaking the show about effective speaking in public, to the media, at work, and in life. Speaking with TJ Walker My guest today is one of the icons of American journalism. Bob Berkowitz has been a major force in TV, radio and print journalism since the 1970s. He was the founding correspondent for CNN in their white house and presidential coverage. In 1980. He has been a top rated talk show host primetime.

On CNBC financial news network. You've seen him on the Today Show. Good morning, America. You've seen him everywhere. One of my questions to buy And to all my guests is, who are some of your childhood and early adult heroes as a broadcaster and mine was none other than Bob Berkowitz. Bob, thanks for joining us tonight.

Pleasure, tj. You know, I, I grew up at a time in New York City, where talk radio was at its high point. And there were three local talk radio hosts that had a profound influence on me to the point where I decided when I was 1213 years old. That's what I wanted to do for a living. I wanted to be a radio talk show host. And I was able to do that in my 20s.

But so I listened to three guys, Barry gray, who I thought was the Dean of talk radio host. He was just such an erudite, smart, interesting, curious in the best sense of the word interviewer. A guy named Brad Crandall, who again had a perspective on On a broader America beyond just my understanding of New York City, and Barry Farber, who I got to work with and be friends with me later in life also is a very smart, interesting broadcaster. You all are great broadcasters all and he was a master storyteller best, the best. And I would toss it another one also long. JOHN Nebo is another very, very, very good talk show host.

They were interesting people, they, they had a terrific guest, not just folks who were there to plug a book or a movie or a play or whatever. They were just every night you'd hear smart people sitting around the microphones at their various studios around New York City, talking about whatever was interesting that day. And I really, I grew up fascinated by that whole concept of interesting, provocative, thought provoking conversation. I loved it. So what was your big break last? People liked talk radio I like talk radio and used to listen to the am stations in Charlotte, North Carolina but I didn't end up the CNN white house correspondent.

Well, what was your big break up? Well, to be the CEO, I actually had to be in talk radio. I'll get there. Then I'll say about CNN. I was a student of the University of Denver and I was working at the college radio station there but I was mainly as a as a disc jockey. But as I said, My I and my energy was to be a radio talk show host and there was a talk radio station in Denver those days kg MC which I think is changed this call letters, probably a million times I don't even know it's still on the air.

And I in those days, I had more more chutzpah, more golf more cheek than I had brains. And I just walked into the station I asked to speak to the owner and I I asked for a job And he looked at me like I was a little crazy. But he started throwing a lot of questions at the questions about what was in the news that day. And I guess I handled them pretty well. And it was again, it was it was a time where we they wanted to hear the voices of young people, the generation gap was, was a very big term in those days. And so you have a young person on the air was, I think, a smart move by them and certainly was a big breakthrough for me.

And it was a great time to be on the air. It was it was Vietnam, civil rights. Fascinating politics, Watergate. And after a while, I was commuting back and forth on the weekend, as I was working at kgR radio in San Francisco. Again, I was about 2122 years old, something like that. And in Denver during the week, you know, days off to be where irrelevant because I was having so much fun.

Honestly, it was just, I couldn't believe that they were paying me to do this. It was it was just a gas. So I did that for a while and went to Washington. And in Washington, I started working for the Associated Press Radio Network, which was, after 150 years of being in the news business, the AP decided this radio business was here to stay. So they, they started up a radio network. And in 1980, the winter of 1980 was covering the Republican primary in New Hampshire, between Ronald Reagan and George Bush.

And I got a call from this guy, and he says he ever heard of Ted Turner's Of course verta turn wasn't our Ted Turner. He says, Well, he wants to start a 24 hour a day. All news cable network. Would you be interested in working for us? I said, Well, I'd be interested in talking to you about it. I've got to go What was your reaction?

I mean, it now it seems like just an obvious but at the time, a lot of people were highly followed. You have 20 minutes or news Can't believe the skepticism that I heard from people. I mean, they thought it was going to be a joke. They didn't stick with last six months on the air. And people laughed at Ted Turner they thought he was, you know, a con man, a huckster showman. And they didn't take this thing seriously.

And he is he is parts of those things he is but he's also very serious man. And Ted fits my definition of a genius, TJ, because one of the definitions of genius is that somebody who sees the future and then makes it happen. We all have great ideas. Everybody who's listening to this podcast, you be everybody's Great idea, making it happen. And making a big difference with that big idea. Well, that's that takes a very special person, Ted Turner's Ted is brilliant.

I mean, he's the best one of the most interesting people I've ever met in my life. And one of the smartest, by the way. So I really didn't think a lot about it. Honestly, I focus on I went from New Hampshire to Florida to Illinois, then came back to Washington. sat down, had a talk with him. And I wanted to get into television.

So this is a perfect opportunity for me. So I did it because unlike a lot of people in radio, you are not one constantly told you how to face for radio. Fortunately, no, fortunately, No, I guess not. But so I I joined cnn two months before we went on the air, and it was chaotic. Yeah, we didn't know what we were doing. I thought this is gonna be a mess.

And I remember my first assignment was to cover the Ohio primaries, it was Carter versus Kennedy and the democratic side or Reagan versus bush on the Republican side. And and the first night that cnn went on the air, June 1 1980, I sat with my producer and my crew at a bar outside of Cleveland, because they had a TV and they had seen and their cable system. Not too many cable systems carried cnn in those days, and there weren't that many cable systems. And we sat there and we watched it for a couple of hours. And we couldn't believe how good it was. And then what was so I covered right They asked me to cover the reagan campaign.

And then when reagan was elected to light outside, I became the white house correspondent for CNN. What was interesting to me is that when you know everywhere we go with the president, sam donaldson, lesley stahl, john Palmer, Andrew Mitchell, they were the big stars, they would net people would go crazy over them. But when we went into San Diego, I remember this, especially San Diego at that time, had the highest penetration of cable, and CNN was a big, we didn't know that. I was suddenly the rock star, because they and they all come up to me and say, we can't stop watching CNN. It's like an addiction. We just start watching.

We just can't turn it off. Now are we thought in the very early days of CNN, that it was going to be something that you watched in between shows or during a commercial break. Or between innings, you flip over and catch up on the news and it wasn't People started watching it, and they couldn't stop. And it's still on. It's still on today and making a lot of money and very different from the very rough early days of the network back in the early 80s. Tell me more about Ronald Reagan.

There's so much mythology about him as a communicator. He certainly lived up to the name of the great communicator. Many people just assume because he was an actor, he could just do everything flawlessly off the top. He were there. He really could. I mean, I think off, sometimes it was good off the top of his head and sometimes to get himself into trouble.

He was pretty tightly scripted, as both a candidate and as President, even when he didn't have a teleprompter in front of them. He had three by five or four by six cards in his hand. And he'd What was that? Well, I gotta ask what was that like? Because I've had I've heard people who Some worked for them some met with him and said, it was kind of weird to be sitting in a meeting with him. And he was glancing down at three by five note cards reading the whole time.

Well, you know, he was a professional actor, so he could work around a script pretty well and make it sound very convincing. But But he did need that because when he get off message when you get off, sometimes you get into trouble. I remember during the 1980 campaign, he said off the cost that the biggest source of air pollution in America were trees, because trees emit carbon dioxide and a lot of people laughed at that. And then Jim Brady may rest in peace. Jim was the campaign spokesperson. And he came to the back of the plane back of the campaign plane Reagan was up front, it came back and we were flying over some forest area somewhere in America and you look down he's his little killer trees down there.

We all laughter of course quoted him. And the and Ronald Reagan never said anything but but Nancy Reagan gave Jim quite a tongue lashing for that. So he didn't do that again. Now, I have been told that Reagan was such a serious student of public speaking that he would first of all work with his speech writers for months on a big speech, like the State of the Union address. And second of all, spend a whole day doing video rehearsal for a major speech like the State of the Union. And yeah, he was see any of that he was a great speaker.

He was a great speech, he connected to his audience, and he was incredibly likable. You know, it's, he did rehearse a lot, because that came from his career as an actor. He connected with his audience and his audience liked him a lot, even those who disagreed with them. They found Ronald Reagan, a likable guy, and he was a likable guy. You mentioned that he rehearsed. Yes.

Would you see on the the official wall? I mean, the White House typically would put would put things on the calendar of what the President's doing. You're just hearing that yeah, I mean, I can seem pretty friendly with two of his speech writers. One of them, by the way, at became the United States congressman. So I knew them pretty well. And you know, they would tell me, they would also tell me which speeches he wrote.

He was a pretty good writer. And, and he knew his own voice. And one of the things about being a speech writer or if you're a speaker, hiring somebody to write a speech for you, isn't safe that a capture your voice, and that is very, very hard to do. If you're able to write your own speech. I truly, truly strongly advise you to do that. Because nobody knows your voice like you know your voice.

And then of course, he had a lot of experience because in the the outside 76 to 80 he did daily, what three to five minute radio commentaries that he, he wrote out by hand, and he would go around the country. And he was an after dinner speaker, probably at least once a week. So he he got a lot of practice at public speaking and became very, very good at it. He was one of the best observers. Really, he's updated the top two or three. We can't all have a career as a professional actor for decades before entering the arena.

But what are the things that ronald reagan did as a communicator that that anyone could do anyone in our audience for that matter? Well, I there are two people who knew how to use the pause. exceedingly well, and I think the pause is the most underrated tool that any public speaker can use. The pause can emphasize a point we don't see Except maybe in old film clips these days, but you see President Obama all the time, obviously, he's still president. Watch Obama use the pause. Reagan was very good at this too.

When Obama wants to make a big point, he pauses. Now, we were told, guys like you and me grew up in radio, oh, you cannot get air. Well, Obama uses that dead air and so did Reagan to their advantage. That pause was almost a signal to the listeners, the viewers, the people in the audience, what I'm about to say is very important. And it pause, and then he hit his his big line. The other thing also that both Reagan and Obama do exceedingly well is that they use their voice as an instrument to make their points.

So again, what listen to Obama, when Obama says, and this Ladies and gentlemen, is exactly why America should be doing XYZ he'll Change the cadence, he'll change the tone. So suddenly go from a lower range in his voice to a higher range in his voice to again, make the point and Reagan was extremely good at it as well. You'll see some speakers. Hillary Clinton is not, by her own admission, a great speaker. But she almost comes off as a shouting so does Trump to a large degree as well. Reagan almost sounded and this is a real compliment to him conversation.

When he was a speaker. Yes, you knew it was public speaking because I would talk to him and he was it's a little different, but he was so natural at it and he was so comfortable with it, that it sounded even if he's giving the State of the Union address conversation. And most speakers are not that that way or that good. Why is it that so many people who proclaim to love Ronald Reagan, whether it is Donald Trump, but some Democrats, but we saw In both conventions in 2016, speaker after speaker yelling, whether it was Bernie Sanders, certainly Rudy Giuliani, who can be a great speaker, it just seemed as though they were yelling at the top of their lungs. Well, I do have no idea. It's a great point, tj.

And I watched, especially Giuliani and I said to myself, why are you doing this? I guess you're right. You're not a bad speaker. You know, you and I live in New York City. And so we saw Mayor Giuliani up close and hurt him a lot because of he was in office for quite a long time. So I don't know why I think they think it's gonna energize the audience that they're yelling and screaming or energize them, or reagan did.

It's yell and scream. Obama doesn't yell and scream. Bill Clinton doesn't yell and scream. And I just think it's a big mistake. I it sounds unnatural. Cory Booker, who I think could be A great speaker, again has that tendency though not as much as Giuliani of yelling at me yelling at the audience.

Yeah, I was. I was a little more favorable towards Cory Booker's speech, although I thought the beginning seemed a little overly too much trying to be like Lincoln and a little contrived. But I do think he's a good I think he is, and I think he could be better. I think he could be better, or anyone can improve at any age. I think that Hillary Clinton did improve in that she did, for the most part solve her problem of yelling too much. Where I still falter in her 2016 democratic convention speech is that she spoke at the same speed and pause the same amount between each word.

And it didn't sound conversational. I agree. Are you heard Obama Obama varies the cadence varies. Se varies the tone. Again, it engages the interest of the audience but it also he can use that voice and the way he uses it as an instrument to make his points more clearly. We're speaking to Bob Berkowitz famed broadcaster and was also one of the best known media trainers in the land today.

For more information about him. You can go to Bob Berkowitz calm you can also send him a message on Twitter at Bob Berkowitz you're listening to speaking with TJ Walker, brought to you by media training worldwide. If you're looking to improve your own speech, your own media skills, then go to media training worldwide calm or click on the link below in the show notes and you can get a free no obligation online course for both media training and public speaking training. Back to Reagan Is there anything else you think he Does that really isn't that hard, but most people just don't do it? And then I want to move on to some other well known ones you've done. Yeah.

When he would answer a question you were, and he was pausing a little bit to give him a second or two, to think of his answer. And it too many politicians want to just jump into the answer that giving themselves a little second or two a beater to to fit what I'm going to say here. And what is the answer and why is it important for the audience to know it? And Reagan was quite good at that. He was it was excellent at that. And he always had a bit of a twinkle in his eye and he was funny.

You could be very, very funny as well. But but I think it's a mistake. When people in our business, the media training, speech, presentation, training business, advise people to tell a joke in the speech and I always say to them, and I you feel bad as TJ I always thought if you if you really know that joke is funny, and you're really funny and that you know that it's also relevant to the topic you're speaking at. Okay? But but don't do it if you have any hesitation about all any of the above, because if you bomb in your joke, it will affect the audience and will affect you for the rest of your time standing in front of those folks. I agree and i i recommend people stay away from jokes when you can make fun of yourself and it seems natural and it's a part of the story.

Great. Now what reagan did I thought quite well see really could retell a joke he saw every read and Reader's Digest and do it in a way where he didn't seem like he was trying too hard. He still came across likable and it generates a chuckle. Most people do that. It doesn't give me a laugh. I was covering the debate.

It was the second debate that he had with Walter Mondale and in 84. In the first debate, he did very badly. I mean, he was just it was scary how bad he was. And people are starting to wonder, you know, has he had a stroke? Is he getting senile is he is dementia started to set in? And as we know, later in life, he did have Alzheimer's.

And so he made a joke about it. And the second it was hysterical. He said, Yes, I'm sure know exactly what he said. He said, he says, as, as, as Thomas Jefferson once said, and I was there when he said it, you know, making making fun of his age. And he did it just beautifully. And then with Mondale saying, I will not make your youth and inexperience I can't get the bundle breaking said that.

Yeah. And it was great. I mean, he could make fun of himself and, and he was just terrific at it. And but he was not he was not a mean spirited guy. So he wouldn't he wouldn't The things that pastor political discourse these days. I just think of Yeah, you know, regular around, he would just he would cringe.

He wouldn't believe it. Moving on from the White House you became a very successful talk shows my my first encounter with you was watching your nightly primetime show on financial news network than CNBC, where you interviewed anyone and everyone. Tell me who you think some of the most interesting communicators were what they did that made them really stand out from the normal celebrity politician humdrum? Well, when I did a business show on CNN and fnn. Rather, I thought Lee Iacocca was a brilliant communicator. He was a great storyteller.

And he was a natural salesman, but he could sell his ideas, and he did it with a sense of passion. That was contagious. And you you would believe whatever he said, you'd believe it and he was amazing. But I remember him telling me a story that stays with me to this day. He said that a lot of his workers on the assembly line at Chrysler plants and and Franek Michigan and places like that could not read. They were illiterate.

And so I said, Well, what do you do? He says, What can I do? I said, we would make our instruction books with pictures. And I had one of the top executives from McDonald's on said the same thing. He said that a lot of there. A lot of the people working behind the counter were illiterate.

And so instead of having the name, Big Mac on the cash register did have a picture of it. And that was it seared into my memory of that here we are, you know, the wealthiest country in the world. And we'd like to think of ourselves as the greatest country in the world. And we have a substantial number of our fellow citizens are in the workforce, who are functionally illiterate. And that was that was a real shocker to me. But they both both of these executives, I forgot the name of the gentleman from McDonald's, but Lee Iacocca, I'll never forget it.

The way he looked at me, he just shrugged his shoulders. What are you gonna do? You got to work around it? Yes, he was not the first but sort of one of the first edge of the celebrity CEO who had the best selling books, and he was very much a part of the rehabilitation celebration of the Statue of Liberty, and really leveraged his position to be almost a pop icon. Yes, that's true. But I think he also started the bad friend.

You're absolutely right. Lee Iacocca was the first step doing all of the above and he was one of the first people not the very first but one of the first people certainly on that level to do his own commercials. I see that unfortunately, all too often. You'll see it in local television, even in a big market like New York City, where the advertising agency is playing up to the ego of the guy who owns the Chevy dealership in Brooklyn or in Columbus, Ohio, or whatever and said, Oh, you should be on television. You're so interesting or so. So, and so appealing to his vanity, this portion up, goes on television and makes a fool of himself trying to sell his Chevy's or whatever he is pitching, or it's his daughter, or his granddaughter or his girlfriend or his.

It's just awful. Lee Iacocca could do it because he has such tremendous presence and he was naturally gifted as a communicator. Most executives smart as they may be successful as they may be. They're not in his class. And it's a mistake to do that. You know, I'm a little conflicted.

Bob, on the one hand, I cringe When I see some stiff executive who is reading a teleprompter and their head is stiff, and they're monotone, and they've got a fancy suit on, but everything else is awful. And there's a part of the cringing for them. But there's another part of me with my media training hat. And I would think with your media training hat, where you think, Wow, this person had just spent a day being trained properly, they could come across well, too, because very few CEOs get to where they are without being good communicators at some level. That's true. I agree with you, TJ except the commercial is different than a speech.

A commercial is different than a media interview. A commercial takes a certain amount of I hate to say it, but acting and and sometimes you're put in a dramatic situation and it looks awkward. It looks fake, and it looks phony. Whereas if they're making a speech, you know somebody like yourself For me, yeah, we can make them much better. There's no question about it. And we could make them better for that commercial.

That's true. But it's a different medium as from my perspective, at least then then usually other kinds of presentations. I mean, sometimes they have them doing such goofy things, especially in a local car dealership commercial, just just it's just cringe worthy. You mentioned acting, and you've interviewed a lot of actors throughout your career. Some some actors who are fantastic actors, Robert DeNiro. Warren Beatty are famously horrible at being interviewed.

Who are some of the actors who you think actually did a great job when they're out promoting a George Clooney is great. is a great he's so natural and so comfortable in his own skin, and funny and charming. He's just tremendous. Do you remember Jennifer Beals? She was a short exactly in the 70s when I was a correspondent for The Today Show, I was I was gonna be on the set last with Jane Pauley I would typically is that I would do I had a story, and Jane would do the setup to the story introduced me that I would do another setup and the video story would go on air and Jane and I would do a little byplay afterwards or Brian or whoever. I was doing it with that day.

In this particular day. Brian was on the other side of the students Oh, live Of course stage was live, as you all know. And Brian is going to interview Jennifer Beals who was in a picture, which I think lasted in the theaters for about 20 minutes. She did a remake of Bride of Frankenstein or something close to that with sting. And it was just apparently one of the worst films in the history of Hollywood. And and clearly she did not want to be out there promoting it was gonna open up that day.

So Friday, I remember that. And then So Brian is interviewing her and she's giving these monosyllabic answers yeah No, we're shrug our shoulders. And this is supposed to be like, like a six or seven minute segments pretty long on the Today Show. And and so about two minutes into that Brian is trying to do and Brian is a great interviewer. I mean, he's just, you know, you don't get any better than Brian Gumbel. And finally he looks at her he says, I guess we don't want to talk today.

Do we? Well, I guess this interview Jane, which was great for me, because I got another five minutes of FaceTime on television, I was thrilled but I was watching this like, Oh my god, what is going on here and it was live television. It was it was thrilling. And happens. Brian Gumbel is in some ways the I guess the the reverse or the the mirror image. Opposite of Ronald Reagan.

Everyone always talked about how likable Ronald Reagan was even political foes. A lot of people who have tremendous respect for Brian Gumbel. don't really find him likable. Well, he would probably agree If you Bryant was very honest, and most people aren't 10% as honest as he is, he said, I don't like most people, and it came across. But I think people and you use that term yourself. They respected his abilities.

And I think he proved that there's an old rule and television, which I think is the most part is true that you have to be likable. The audience has to like you. I don't be honest with the things lights Brian, but they really knew he was excellent at what he did. He was a great interview or he, he prepared an enormous amount. And nobody was better in a live situation faster on his feet. And quick thinking as Brian Gumbel So no, he's still around.

Yeah. I also recognize because he's lost so much weight. It almost looks too thin to me. But, but neither here nor there. But he but he was he says Really great topic discussed but not a particularly likeable guy agree with me? I don't like most people, I don't know they like me but I can be like hard, you know, sorry are hard to imagine of all the people you've interviewed that are there any interviews that stand out whether it was a edited piece on remote or in the studio, and it's just the best interview and the worst interview.

The worst I can give you real fast. I was doing talk radio back in Denver. I was again 21 years old, something like that. And, and Jane Fonda was my guest. And I think she was in Denver for an anti war demonstrations, Vietnam War days. And she walked into the radio studio shook hands very nice, very nice jacket and jeans and took off her jacket.

And she was wearing like this mushy blouse with nothing underneath it. Now a young Man with real high testosterone. And I'm sitting across a table from her she has her mic in front right my microphone and I'm she was a big, she was a big sex symbol star again, but both cats and a very nice two bottle. So I am doing the interview not looking in her eyes that the way you would normally have a conversation with somebody but looking at other parts of her body, which was quite revealing. And I was concentrating to the best of my ability on the interview. And I said, well, let's find out what do you think of blah, blah, blah.

And she just pauses her mouth is a game and then she just breaks up laughing and I thought again, I thought I'd asked a very straightforward question. And finally she controls herself and this is again live radio and I said, What what what what did I say that was so funny. She says to realize what's your call message though? You call me Miss fundal And, and for me to be speechless was was little Friday and that's quite a statement but it but she was very nice about it and years later I was at a party in Hollywood and a friend of mines house was an actor in Hollywood. And she was there with her then husband Tom Hayden. And I was talking to Tom Hayden and she came over and she said to me, she says, You look very familiar to me.

We met before and I knew we had met what I see is that I've seen you on movies many times have such a big fan blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. To change the subject. Oh, can you tell me about clewd or whatever? You know, any movies are in inches. I know who you are. And she looks at Tommy's honey.

That's the guy Jane Fonda will. You will live on I was interviewed that I did that day. I think one question I remember I asked which I thought was a pretty good question was I was when I was a reporter at a American Airlines DC tenant crashed outside of O'Hare in Chicago. And I covered the vehicle, the CA D, the Civil Aeronautics Bureau, if they were in charge of airline safety and many people died with a horrible event. And and they were giving a very dry recitation of the facts. And, you know, it was they were not giving much information out.

And I turned to the guy who was giving the presenters time for question as it would you let your family fly on a DC 10. Now, he said hell no. Because that's really what was important. Yes. You know, he can talk about the mechanical issues and the manufacturing issues. Oh, no, which is important.

I'm not saying it's important. But what American people wanted to know is, Am I safe fly on this plane and you said, Hell No, not now. Eventually. They fix the problem. DC 10s were great. And I've flown around a million times and they're what they were wonderful planes don't fly anymore.

I don't think so that I think what a good interviewer says to him or herself is, what does the audience want to know? And what's the question that I would ask that the audience wouldn't ask. wouldn't think that and what's really what's this really about? When as a white house correspondent I, one of things I learned in observing sam donaldson Adams, a really great reporter. Was it Sam was really good at getting to the heart of the issue. What's the story really about?

Too many? I thought reporters in Washington were doing what we call inside baseball, the politics that who's up who's down, kind of part of the story. And Donaldson was really good at saying what's this really about, but he would cut to the heart of the story cut to the chase of the story, and I try to do that as an interviewer to were speaking to Bob Berkowitz, longtime broadcast journalist, and media trainer, he has been basically at every network you and I have similar careers that we're both media trainers. But the only difference is I failed miserably at every attempt that I ever add as a broadcast journalist and talk show host. And you succeeded massively and worked your way up the media food chain. I want to get your sense of how strengths and weaknesses play into people's careers because you talk to the average person in my immediate training classes, your media training classes, they have this sense that everyone in the media is just born abnormally articulate, good looking, everything is smooth.

But then you look at someone like Barbara Walters, I know you've worked with her, and she has a lisp. She has a bit of a speech impediment. And she is Until recently, she was on the air almost every day. She's still occasionally on the air. She's been on the air for what's going on 70 years. What is her secrets?

Is he whip smart? That's number one. Number two, she's exceedingly confident in her abilities as an interviewer and as a broadcaster, and as a journalist. Number three, she is unbelievably prepared going into an interview. You know, Larry King was the opposite. I'm not saying one's right.

The other one's wrong. Obviously, Larry had a great career. Larry would go out of his way say he would never read the book because he wanted to be in the position of the person at home watching this, who obviously hadn't had a chance to read the book too. And I thought that was a bit of a cop out because I would read a book because I wanted to test the author uses the word 90% of them are nonfiction books, you know, this, this makes sense is what the author Saying correct or true? I'll give you an example of that and go back again back to Barbara Walters. But I had these two people and I'm drawing a blank on their names.

But at the time, when I had my show in the financial news network, they had a giant organically popular book about trends in the future married couple. And they part of that one of their predictions was that, that that in 10 years or 20 years time of the future, more people would be going into the toddlers Heidi and Alvin Toffler was Alvin Toffler was believed he was mega mega trends Janez that's it you Nesbitt and his wife. I forgot what her name is. JOHN has been, but her name was and Topher Lee brilliant title was genius died very recently. But the Nesbit's came on they were saying that in the future, more people would be going to cultural events than sports events. And it just didn't make sense to me.

I said, Wait a minute, let me think of it in the near future. Said giant stadium is sold out every Sunday with either the jets and the giants that that holds 60 70,000 people. Nope. If you add up all the Broadway theaters together, every single Broadway theater and Opera by theater, that doesn't add up to that Yankee Stadium holds 50 60,000 people that time Shea Stadium all good hold about the same amount that and there's, you know, had sold most of their seats. Madison Square Garden is 20,000 for the Knicks, and the Rangers just here in New York alone. I say it just doesn't make sense doesn't compute.

And they were doing they're sort of him and i and i, they walked out and they were sort of cursing me out under their breath. They didn't know I was there that bind them. And so I think without reading the book, they would get away with a lot of stuff that just is wrong or didn't make sense. And I think a good interviewer in part has to be almost like a consumer advocate, you know, should you buy this book does it does it will you learn something from the book is this book telling you the truth, and Barbara Walters is really, really good. tough. I think she's a fair interview, but she was a tough interviewer too.

She would really put the person generally sticking to the paces now with actors, she would be a little softer. And she you know, and those barbara walters Academy Award special she would, she wanted to get some tears, I think more than hard truths out of the people she was talking to but, but but she was really good, really, really good interview. You know, I you know, the one question how you feel about this, TJ that I hate when actors are asked that when when they're asked about their political points of view, who they're gonna vote for, why they, they believe in this, who cares? Honestly, who cares? If you want to talk to them that that acting great that I'd love to hear because they're experts in acting. They really knows their stuff when it comes to acting, but I don't care about their opinion anymore that I care about.

The person is going to affect I care more about the opinion of the person who's going to clean up the studio. Long after we're gone that night because that person has a much sharper sense of reality than an actor's got a gazillion dollars and doesn't have to worry about making the mortgage or the rent payments every month and getting food on the table and saving money for their kids education. They're filthy rich, they're powerful, though influential, whereas the person, you know, the average working stiff, they have a strong sense of reality of what it's like to live in America. And those are the people I'm more interested in their opinion than I am in some actor, or ballclub I partially agree with you, but I do think it It depends, just like they are some really rich CEOs that command a lot of airtime because of their stature.

They you know, they ran an aluminum company well, so now they want to weigh in on tax policy. They don't really know what's best for tax policy anymore than what a Hollywood celebrity knows that our foreign policy should be. I guess to me, it just depends if I hear someone like Tom Cruise Saying things that I personally think are idiotic. I don't let that dissuade me from going to one of his movies if I think it's a good movie. I'm not saying that because I mean, I think Meryl Streep is a great actress. I just don't care about her politics.

I mean, I'm agree with her politics, but I don't care what their political opinion is. But if you're a great actress, absolutely. Well, I go see your movies. More than likely, but what do you what do you think of someone like George Clooney, who he he really did grow up in a news household as you know, my father was a news anchor. He has a tremendous interest in news. And he, to me, he's not someone mouthing off every day trashing politicians, he uses his celebrity to put a spotlight on human rights, atrocities and dark for other places.

To me in a way that seems respectful and and legitimate now, maybe that's just because maybe it's just because I like his politics. I like his politics too, but he walks the talk. He Really as taking the time to go into depth for he does doesn't you know, do a drop in as a celebrity with a camera crew there to record his his 10 minutes there. He really spends time in these places you really gets to know the people gets to know the issues. It's not just sort of a hate to say PR stunt, but a PR stunt is what it is most of the time, not with him. He really, really gets it and I think he's the exception to the rule.

But I look I guarantee Mark my words, as we get close to the to the presidential election this fall. They'll be asking some ballplayers who they're going to vote for adding the WHO CARES when asked about how to hit a curveball great, or how to throw a pass for a touchdown. Fantastic. That's what they're there for. That's what I'm interested in. But who there they think it should be the next president could care less I could care less fairpoint Have you been in the communication business for decades now.

What's different now, as far as basic skills needed to succeed? Well, I think basically, I don't think there's anything different about the basic skills teaching, what's different is there. I always said, there's no such thing as off the record what you think is off the record, and what the report of things is off the record could be two different things. Today, there really is no such thing as off the record. witness. Four years ago, Mitt Romney thinking that he was at a cozy little private reception with with donors, and he mouths off about the 47% are just there to take money from the government.

And it was very embarrassing for him, somebody recorded it. And we see that in this campaign as well. There's no such thing as off the record. So that's the one thing technologically that's different. Also, whatever you say, for better for worse, can get around the world in seconds. Sometimes it's good and sometimes if you make a phone Not so good.

So that's the basics of communications. Who is the audience? What is the message you're trying to get to them? if they if they heard three, two or three or four messages? What would they be if they walked away with those messages? Why is that important?

I think what's also really important TJ, is that 90% of our conversation is with ourselves. And we understand ourselves perfectly. I speak Bob fluidly. But it would be a big mistake for me to think that because I understand me, that TJ has to understand me, or that any other person understands me. And so I think it is incumbent upon the communicator to take the extra first step, second step, third step, fourth step, to make sure that he or she is being as clear as they possibly can be. So what are we can by the way, just want to point out for our listeners, Bob, you have an excellent column on this very theme that people can find on LinkedIn if they search your name Bob Berkowitz, where else can they find that column?

I think as I was on Facebook as well, and, and my Twitter account as well, too. But what I'm saying is, though, is that you have to translate what you mean, it's, you just can't make a statement and say, I believe in XYZ, what do you mean by XYZ? You have to say, Here's what I mean by that. Or here's an example of what I'm talking about, or here's why I think this is important, or this is what why it changes things. Or here's how I came to this conclusion. And I think you also have to go another step even beyond that and ask and answer your own questions you almost have to read the mind of the artist is that you know, if I was sitting where you're sitting, I wonder about this, or, you know, a lot of people asked me about that.

So you're going so far, too, to the best of your abilities at least, to make sure that You are as clear as you possibly can be. And I think that is vitally important. And and that that was as true today as it was 50 years ago. But I think most of us don't do that most of us just assume that everybody understands us. And that's a bad assumption, business sales on bad communication assumptions. Well, I assume you understood what I was talking about.

Why would you do that for quick follow up on the off the record, we do have a number of listeners who are in the public relations industry, either firms or agencies in house. There is a school of thought that says never go off the record with a reporter I understand exactly what you mean that you can't say something wildly inflammatory like 47% of the country is a bunch of leeches and expect that to stay in. But I do subscribe to the theory that there are limited situations where you do need to speak to a reporter often The record, but I want to get your take on that. First, I think you better know and trust that reporter. And to if it did leak would would it really be an awful thing for you? You can say on background, let me give you the to the reporter, which is off the right individual or off the record.

Let me explain, you know the context of this, you can do that. But if it got out, would it really be that badly? that bad? That embarrassing answer is no, it wouldn't be, but don't say so. I'll give you an example. What I'm talking about.

A good friend of mine is a White House official when I was covering the White House who ever since and he was talking to a reporter and he was a top political guy at the reagan White House. And and the political reporter who was interviewing him he knew the reporter trusted and this guy was a great reporter. You know, a no BS kind of guy you really wasn't asked to fool anybody or or pull tricks on anybody. And so the topic was there was a rumor that Maureen Reagan, President Reagan's oldest daughter was going to run for the Senate seat in California. And ed rollins, because Ed has talked about this publicly. So I'm not saying anything behind his back and thought he honestly thought he was off the record.

And Leo, the reporter, thought it was on the record, and they were both honorable guys both honest, honorable guy. Just so understanding and, and etc, Jesus sees the dumbest sob in the world sees she doesn't know what the hell she's doing. She doesn't know the issues, bah bah. And he's trashing her. And Leo's dutifully reporting it and it gets into his newspaper The next day, which happened to be a California Newspaper. And Ronald Reagan, not only being president knighted states, but he's the father and he calls that into the office and gives him watch for because there was a miscommunication about this.

I have a client, who was one of the top lawyers and you York City's a top litigator, really. He, he is in some of the biggest cases in the city, really in the country as well. And, and has a deal with a reporter from the New York Post paper here in New York. But he's known his report for 40 years and the reporter calls up and says, Ed, what's the deal about XYZ? He's just, you know, I just, I want to go off the record. He's is Charlie usual rules?

Yes. And usual rules. Well, they have a decade's old relationship of trust, where they trust each other. But the other thing also is that forget talking to a reporter don't put anything in an email that you'd be worried about or embarrassed if it got on the front page of the New York Times or The Washington Post. Look it up in a democratic national committee when I believe the Russians hacked the DNC database, and these terribly embarrassing emails were leaked. At the time that somebody wrote that, that email, they didn't have Any knowledge that it was going to be public was a private email.

And it wasn't. But it was embarrassing when it came out into the public, privately, fine, publicly not so fine. So don't write anything in an email. Don't say anything to anybody that you're worried about big, made public. I've only been on an upward positive note. I mean, the whole interview has been positive from my perspective, but I want to know, what advice do you have if you had a 20 year old?

Niece, nephew, family member come to you and say I want to be in the media. I want to be a journalist. However that's defined, what is your advice to someone like them they used to be, go to journalism school, get a job at a local paper, make the jump to the wire services, those rules. First of all, try getting a job at a local newspaper, or good luck. What is your advice to someone who really wants to be a full time communicator in the journalism funny, you should ask that question. Two days from now, I'm having lunch with a young cousin of mine who wants to know the answer to that very question.

And you're right, the traditionally those are the answers that you give, go to you go to a small town newspaper, learn your craft, work your way up, radio, TV, whatever it is, but it's hard to do that. Now. There aren't a lot of those opportunities that the word when I was young, I was very fortunate I could do that I could make a fool of myself in a small environment before I made a fool of myself so hard your environment. So but you can't do that anymore. But there are blogging opportunities, number one that we didn't have in those days. And it gives you a chance to hold your abilities as a writer as a thinker as a reporter.

And I think that's great. You've got to love to write if you want to be a journalist. You just can't wait to get up in the morning and do it. Number two is that you have to be a giant ganic consumer of news you have to love going online or reading a paper face Diablos when you're the time your view become a reporter, but going online and just being a voracious consumer of journalism, it's like some, you just love to do it, you can't wait to do it. And number three is and in real estate, I want to love to write about it, too. I'm not sure I, I would suggest going to J school, journalism school.

I think you should take some journalism courses, to be sure. But I think a good journalist is either one of two things. He has a great broad education, a broad understanding of the world and the way things work, or he has this he or she are specialists in science or the economy or the law, and they're both viable ways. But to be a journalism major, I'm not so sure that's to take some courses in journalism. But get a good education, a good broad general education or a very focused education and then connect your knowledge of science to journalism. For more information about Bob's trainings, his workshops his seminars go to Bob Berkowitz calm that's three W's beyond OBVRKO wi t z.com.

We'll include that in the show notes. You can also reach out to him on twitter at Bob Berkowitz, Bob, thank you for being our guest my great pleasure DJ. Speaking with TJ Walker is the number one rated daily streaming TV and radio show devoted to all aspects of speaking and communication. If you received value from this show, then please subscribe to it at media training worldwide calm please review the show, leave comments and share it with your friends. Colleagues today